Which two bands did Hole play between at 1994’s Reading Festival?
“Pavement and either The Flaming Lips or The Verve?”
CORRECT-ISH. Close enough! You were sandwiched between Pavement and Gang Starr. The Flaming Lips and The Verve had appeared earlier on the bill. Reading 1994 was your first gig with Hole, having joined the band merely weeks before following the death of previous bassist, Kristen Pfaff, who had overdosed on heroin. It also marked frontwoman Courtney Love’s first performance after the suicide of her husband Kurt Cobain four months earlier. Did it feel like a baptism of fire?
“I was Through The Looking Glass. I understood that my life had taken a radical turn into the complete David Lynchian abyss of the unknown mystery of rock. It all happened extremely quickly and strangely. I had originally said no to Billy Corgan’s suggestion that I join Hole because the death, drugs, fame and the pain seemed unbearable, but then I realised there was a larger force at work, and I understood this was my call to participate in my generation – not only in music, but in women’s history.
“Hole was my degree in humanities, and the Smashing Pumpkins [whom Auf der Maur joined in 1999] was my master’s in music. I could not have had a higher education than those two bands back-to-back in my twenties.”
Can you see Hole’s influence on music today?
“When I got my daughter tickets to see Olivia Rodrigo for her 13th birthday, we got invited backstage. Olivia Rodrigo said to my daughter: ‘Without your mother, none of this would have happened’. That’s when it locked in for me that there are direct correlations. In Olivia Rodrigo’s records, I notice the ’90s influence in both the songwriting and production, and of course her debut album, ‘Sour”s cover has a nod to Hole’s ‘Live Through This’, with the beauty queen. But having that said to my daughter in front of me was one of the proudest moments of my life.”
Who hosted the episode of Saturday Night Live that Hole appeared on in 1994?
“George Foreman.”
CORRECT. The boxer and grill entrepreneur.
“I grew up in Canada with more British influences like Monty Python, so I didn’t realise then what a big deal it was being on SNL.”
Before the show, Courtney and yourself were set up on a double-date with cast members Adam Sandler and Chris Farley.
“I also didn’t realise how crazy that was – I didn’t even know who they were! [Laughs] They were very polite and funny, but I didn’t quite understand what was happening.”
Although unflinchingly honest about the reality of being an alternative musician in the ‘90s, your new memoir, Even The Good Girls Will Cry: My 90s Rock Memoir is also crammed with funny moments…
“What I lived through was absurd and insane. My favourite dinner party story to whip out is: ‘Let me tell you about the time I was in Milan at Donatella Versace’s party and these little silver platters of cocaine were being passed around, and then these men were being paraded in front of me to choose from…’ [Laughs] It’s very strange.”
Courtney’s talent of smoking a cigarette through her vagina is memorable as well…
[Laughs] “I wonder if she will remember that. She’s reading the book at the moment, but I don’t know if she’s gotten to it. That was a moment between me and her and I knew if I didn’t tell this story, no one would ever know about this absurd moment where we’ve taken a hit of marijuana and suddenly, by the deli tray, she’s showing me a party-trick with her vagina. It’s hilarious – and human.
“Courtney and I are in such an amazing place together. We’re unconditionally supportive of each other. I was so proud to sing on her upcoming new record. I went to London last year and sang on all the tracks. It’s a gorgeous record and a real continuation of [Hole’s 1998 album] ‘Celebrity Skin’ in many ways that will absolutely satisfy any Hole or Courtney fan.”
Which episode of The Simpsons did Hole turn down guest starring in?
“Homerpalooza. We were replaced by the Smashing Pumpkins. It’s so annoying. [Laughs] I wish I had been more forceful at the time to say you guys are idiots. Anyway, it’s a drag!”
CORRECT. Hole’s management thought the script was “making a caricature of Courtney”. The episode is based on the Lollapalooza festival, which Hole headlined in 1995…
“I devote a whole chapter in my book to Lollapalooza 1995, because that was the height of so much great individuality and bands, and then it started getting corporate after that. It was beautiful, other than some of the fucked-up shit like shotgun shells being thrown at the stage. That sucked.”
After which a man screams towards Courtney: ‘YOU FUCKING KILLED KURT, BITCH!’…
“Unfortunately, you get used to it. A lot of drama and chaos can numb you and it makes you shut off. It shut me down and made me disappointed in humans, and it made me run away from music and the industry. The more I wrote my book, the more fiercely determined I became to speak on behalf of women of my generation and what I witnessed, and Courtney being a symbol of a world that we thought was in full-swing progress, while it absolutely was not. And look where we are now.”
During a 1998 press conference for the book, Who Killed Kurt Cobain – which implied that Courtney killed her husband (a conspiracy theory that stubbornly lingers today) – your father, journalist and politician Nick Auf der Maur, confronted Courtney’s estranged father, Hank, grabbing the microphone to protest: ‘I’m Melissa’s father! There are no fathers on this stage!’ before being dragged off. Were you proud of him?
“It was so cool. A lot of who I am is because of my father, who taught me how to be fearless like that and stand up for what you believe in. He was a political activist who got arrested many times for fighting for what’s right and for justice and humanity. His commitment was to representing the underdog – and he saw Courtney like that, and I learned through his actions in defending her. Many middle-aged men hated Courtney because she’s the most impossible woman to understand. She’s so complex. But my father got it and defended her honour.”
CREDIT: Melissa Auf der Maur
Which Britpop band asked you to play bass for them?
“Elastica.”
CORRECT. After Elastica’s bassist, Annie Holland, suffered from heroin withdrawal at Lollapalooza and was sent home. Unfortunately, Hole’s management prevented you from joining them.
“It was a very cool offer, but not cool that I had to say no! We – women in rock – were rooting, and starving, for each other. When Elastica came out with that British post-punk attitude combined with pop catchiness, they were an exciting anomaly. Everyone thinks the ‘90s is the time of women, but they didn’t all last and there wasn’t a lot. On that Lollapalooza bill, sure, there’s one female bass player in Sonic Youth [Kim Gordon] and a female bass player in Beck, but it was still a boy’s world. So Elastica was so exciting because they came in and replaced the queen of all warrior power, Sinéad O’Connor, who had left.”
Sinéad O’Connor only agreed to play Lollapalooza because she was a Hole fan…
“It takes one to know one, and those warrior goddesses [O’Connor and Love] were both misunderstood – and they knew it as it was happening.”
Which track from Rufus Wainwright’s 2001 album ‘Poses’ do you play bass and sing background vocals on?
“‘Evil Angel’. He’s a childhood friend.”
CORRECT. As 13-year-olds, you both competed for the affection of your mutual crush from school named Zébulon.
“That boy Zébulon is an iconic childhood first love for both of us – Rufus even wrote a song about him called ‘Zebulon’, so of course I would tell the Zébulon story in my book. It’s a significant part of our coming-of-age together.”
In 2022, which musician husband-and-wife duo covered Hole’s ‘Celebrity Skin’ for their Sunday Lunch YouTube series?
“Zero idea! ‘Not Sonic Youth’ is my answer!” [Laughs]
WRONG. Robert Fripp and Toyah Willcox.
“Cute! I’ll look it up.”
How do you look back at that album?
“The thing that sat so heavy with me with ‘Celebrity Skin’ was the loss of Patty [Schemel] after an incoming ghost drummer caused her to leave, and the breaking of our spirit. Since I’ve written the book and shed tears about how it was a loss of innocence for me, I actually have more appreciation for the record and can see it’s a great album that I’m proud of.
“Even its overly produced nature sounds great by today’s standards. It’s rich with human playing, with tiny tweaks by early versions of Pro Tools. It’s ageing well. When I met Billie Eilish and Finneas with my daughter, Finneas told me ‘Celebrity Skin’ is a big influence on new producers – in that it sounds both perfect, but also real. All those years of unresolved sadness around the machine and the loss of Patty didn’t allow me to see the beauty in the record. Now I do, and I recommend people go listen to it.”
Will Hole ever reform?
“I have no idea. If there’s one thing I know about Courtney and Hole, it’s that it’s as mysterious as romantic love. You can’t force, organise, or plan these things. What I do know is I’ve always said no for many years, and it wasn’t until the Evil Empire in the US that I began to contemplate where Hole, and Courtney’s fearless feminism, and our generation, could maybe add to this dire dialogue in the US. Some of my interest in returning to Hole in any shape or form is because the world needs that kind of power, rebellion, and intelligence.
“Courtney’s one of the most well-read and intelligent humans I’ve ever spent a significant chapter of my life with.”
Which makes it (grimly) funny that when Hole guitarist Eric Erlandson dared Courtney to pour a bag of Skittles over Kathleen Hanna’s head backstage at Lollapalooza (which ignited a notorious feud), you claim the Bikini Kill frontwoman responded by haughtily screaming “I challenge you to a feminist debate in any college in America! And I. Will. Win.” Did people underestimate Courtney?
“It did seem ridiculous in the moment. [Laughs] People underestimated Courtney – and they still do. They underestimated her will to live, her intelligence, but also her pain. Where was the compassion in understanding how hard this woman was fighting just to be alive with her kind of traumatic life even before Kurt? So give me a break! A lot of my book is trying to highlight compassion for complicated people.”
Name the bonus track on the Japanese edition of your 2004 debut solo album ‘Auf der Maur’.
“Oh my god! ‘Mother’s Red Box’ or ‘Whispers and Potions’?”
WRONG. ‘Good News’.
“OK! [Laughs] ‘Good News’ is the first song I ever wrote, and it almost made it on ‘Celebrity Skin’. Good to know they released it as a bonus track!”
In 2018, which artist did Courtney Love claim that she originally wrote Hole’s ‘Malibu’ for?
“‘Celebrity Skin’ was Courtney’s California album and a response to Fleetwood Mac, so I’m assuming she wrote it for Stevie Nicks?”
CORRECT.
“Stevie Nicks once gave us a tour of her giant storage-space of a wardrobe, which was exciting. Once Courtney realised ‘Celebrity Skin’ was her California album, we were ushered in to learning about the history of Fleetwood Mac. We went to see a private rehearsal of theirs to drink in their beautiful, witchy, pop perfection subtleties.”
What was the pun-based headline when you appeared on the cover of NME for the first time with Hole in 1995?
“Comes Out of a Hole? Crawling Out of a Hole? Something like that!”
WRONG. Close – ‘The Hole Truth’.
“Being on the cover of NME was so much cooler than SNL. I was influenced by UK culture and my summer visits as a teenager to my best friend Alice, whose parents were British. I snuck out to see Lush play when I was 16. Without The Smiths, The Cure and Depeche Mode, I wouldn’t even be obsessed with music. That was my gateway for everything.”
29th April #otd 1995 Courtney Love with Hole on the front cover of @NME Photos by @KCMANC Interview by @amy_raphael Courtney says of hanging out with Julian Cope on her trip to Liverpool in 1982 "He was my first crush… almost a guru" #SearchingForLove pic.twitter.com/iHX6nmA2Xi
— Dave Haslam (@Mr_Dave_Haslam) April 29, 2020
Hole appeared on Top Of The Pops twice. Can you remember another act who performed on the same episode as you?
“Oh boy! It’s wrong, but I’m going to say Kylie Minogue, because I was brought to Top Of The Pops as a young girl with my friend’s father who worked for the BBC, and I saw Kylie lip-sync to ‘The Loco-Motion’. I was more of a Rick Astley fan and had a bigger-than-lifesize poster of him on my wall. I was in love with The Ginger and now I realise it’s just because he looked like me and was trying to find myself in the world of pop. On that same Top Of The Pops trip, I’d stood in line outside of Virgin Records in the rain hoping to get an autograph from Rick Astley – and I didn’t get it. [Laughs] Maybe we can fix that now. Rick Astley: please send autograph!”
WRONG. Among others, you could have had: Menswear, The Outhere Brothers, All Saints or Supergrass.
“I remember meeting Menswear!”
The verdict: 6/10
“That’s very much the score I would get in high school – not too high or too low!”
Even The Good Girls Will Cry: My 90s Rock Memoir by Melissa Auf der Maur is available now and published by Atlantic Books